If we have a biased objective function, the model won't surface any biases we weren't already cognizant of in the objective function. > Can we skip this kind of snippy arguing please? Her response to every argument is "Ah yes the problem with the world is a PoC doing this and that" when the original argument hasn't even suggested that. Well if you do it in the US with skyscraper, in Europe, in Africa, Middle-East or Asia, you will get completely different results and biases. POC in particular should not be quiet when it comes to some of the issues around the questionable use of ML in relation to race and issues that are ultimately surrounding race. That said, I believe the disclaimer you mention was added only after the recent twitter discussion. Furthermore, there are no details related to his family life including his parents, childhood days, and siblings. Adding race, or proxies for race, to the things you consider improves your predictions somewhat. Right now these evaluations are being made by other humans. Seems like social bias can only affect a small proportion of the ML application domains. I asked about two competing definitions of what is racist and you seemed to prefer one over the other.

Except for the part where it provides an actual workable solution to the problem at hand.

I don't think the researcher was being defensive just because it was about racism.

These algorithmic tools just bring those biases to the surface and make them quantifiable.

Embarrassment and humiliation? That is, each neuron is one bit, so you have 8 each computing one of the 8 bits he says are necessary?

Exactly. "'Once the rockets are up, who cares where they come down?

And thought experiments about a "perfect" classifier aren't interesting when we're discussing applied ethics. If you train something to predict, say, odds to default on a loan-- will it figure out things that correlate to race and be making mostly racial decisions? I'm saying that I don't know if forcing research datasets to be "unbiased" will make any difference to real-world injustice. When doing anything prediction-y, you need to take the relative value of false positives and negatives into account.

Not doing so is negligent at best. One possible approach is to make a model that besides its intended prediction also predicts race, and penalise its ability to predict race with probability larger than random. BTW, Watson didn't ignore Franklin- her name is listed in the W&C Nature paper as providing data. This is not a problem for the individual credit issuer-- they're not looking to eliminate the problem. So, you are going back to the training data ;), > So, you are going back to the training data ;), It’s not as though the designers of the system set out to train it on a biased dataset; we can assume they were. I work at Google (and so does Timnit Gebru).

But I didn't say that science and technology are inherently ethical.

If you discriminate based on gender, and haven't considered age (hypothetically it being legal), maybe the latter would be a much better proxy for the real causal factors.

Even before that, she didn't even bother to link the presentation she referred to (which again, didn't even directly address any of the points that Yann was making!). Yup, so, academics should never research this stuff or publish? They mobbed the employers until they had to do something as drastic as firing him. He is still tremendously wealthy, respected, influential, etc... it looks like the only change is that he's not on Twitter. ", "Cyberstalking is a federal offense and many states have cyberstalking laws. Yes. In practice, production actuarial systems for loans need to be interpretable and auditable, so this argument is moot. is there anything that would auto-magically eliminate bias if it were introduced into research? The distinction matters because sometimes people not aligned with the zeitgeist do face serious consequences like being fired, receiving violent threats, etc. I am pretty worried by how quickly China has become the new boogeyman- everyone thinks it's perfectly reasonable to display anger towards a huge country that only a few years ago was seen, despite its obvious issues and shortcomings, as successful and dynamic.



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